11th Jan 2011, 18:35 #1341 (permalink)
Join Date: Feb 2008Location: UKPosts: 19
So what about CHC and it's performance on interim SAR?
11th Jan 2011, 20:44
#1342 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007Location: In EnglandPosts: 386
Since then there seems little evidence in the public domain that they are not delivering effectively...maybe others know differently.
As for the Interim performance impact on the SAR-H competition...it did not seem to affect CHC/Soteria's choice as preferred bidder...self evidently. Surely if there had been any overwhelming problems they would have had a clear impact on the SAR-H IPT (who after all looked after both competitions)..and surley would have influenced the result. Clealry it did not.
Indeed, many of the issues associated with the late delivery of the Interim were classic...trying to bring 2 new aircraft types into a new role simultaneously is one hell of a challenge for any company or military service. I suspect a view was taken that the Interim had allowed the S92 to be de-risked in particular...and this actually lead to an unspoken preferrence for the incumbent, along with any other plus points the wider Soteria consortium were able to offer.
IMO whatever has caused this delay is based on something else and nothing to do directly with CHC and its Interim performance,
Last edited by Tallsar : 11th Jan 2011 at 21:09.
#1343 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2008Location: In the CountryPosts: 76
Tallsar: I am not in the SAR business, but I have been following SAR-H closely and I don't see any other choice than to proceed with it, albeit in a modified form. At least one issue stands in the way, which might be the EU Remedies Directive which governs to what extent a contract can be modified. It's fair to say there has been at least one significant change, i.e. the removal of the 66 government funded employees!
CHC did an impressive job de-risking the S-92 for SAR, it was the AW139 where the issues hurt. My understanding is that CHC did pay fines for issues with the 139 when the aircraft weren't available forcing the S-92 to be bought down south for a few days.
#1344 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007Location: In EnglandPosts: 386
I feel sure that some of the proposed changes that have crept in since June...the deletion of mil aircrew being the most significant....have lead to much recalculation both mathematical and political within Soteria.
I am not convinced the removal of the mil manning is the showstopper issue....as all bidders were asked to submit options at one stage for this possibility..therefore IMO EU Rules have not been transgressed. Thats not to say the internal review of the changes proposed may not have revealed some unpalatable aspects to providing the revised solution which have made Soteria a s a whole now want to back off, or at least have more time to de-risk the solution and ensure it is still worth carrying on. Fully understandable.
Given the rigour of the competition over 4 years as directed by the IPT, it is hard to believe that there is anything more outrageous that has caused this delay......if there is..goodness the scandal will be immense, and severely career limiting for some.
Much a s I have never wanted a PFI solution for future UK SAR as I have always believed there is a better and more integrated solution waiting in the wings...I fear if the present one dies, it will be many years before we see modern helicopter platforms providing the coherent SAR heli service the UK deserves.
#1345 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2008Location: In the CountryPosts: 76
It takes a leap of the imagination, but another possible way of looking at it is that this government has tried to move the goalposts in a bid to perhaps undermine another PFI programme signed up to by the previous administration by making it look less palatable for the preferred bidder.
The intention might be change things to such an extent that it 'urges' Soteria to pull out at its own free will and then everyone is blameless. Certainly not the government! Cynical, yes, but given that this government is keen to get out of expensive PFIs, it's a way out that doesn't involve too much taxpayer expense and who would blame Soteria for getting out?
As you say, the issue then is that there is no plan for after 2016 or indeed 2013 when an 'extended' interim contract ends, and the whole thing starts again, if there is time.
#1346 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2008Location: Deep undercoverPosts: 3
That's because in order to make the playing field level for all bidders (not just those currently providing a SAR service), the SME evaluators that were embeded in the SAR-H IPT for the preliminary and interim ITTs were briefed strictly to assess the bids on the submissions and evidence as presented for those ITTs. In no way was 'past performance' (good, bad or otherwise) to be taken into account and the SAR-H process was to be viewed as an entirely different entetity to the Interim SAR. So whatever it was that swung the descision for SAR-H in favour of Soteria, you're quite right in that it wasn't past performance.Quote:
Interim performance impact on the SAR-H competition...it did not seem to affect CHC/Soteria's choice as preferred bidder
#1347 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007Location: In EnglandPosts: 386
That said, my point was how CHC's Interim Contract performance would be viewed at higher levels both within the IPT, and by the senior players in the MoD and DfT...should they have failed to deliver adequately on the Interim.
Clearly if they had made any signifcant botches, these would clearly have read across to the SAR-H programme. Then any recommendation by the IPT to go with Soteria would have been viewed accordingly...clearly this was not the case - so far anyway!
Cheers
#1348 (permalink) Probationary PPRuNer
Join Date: Apr 2008Location: WycombePosts: 2
As i'm unable to get hold of a copy of Private Eye in the immediate future, does anyone have any excerpts from the story it published??
#1349 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2008Location: In the CountryPosts: 76
Quote:
So long Soteria? WHEN Private Eye predicted difficulties in a $5bn, 20-year PFI contract to supply search and rescue helicopters to the RAF and UK coastguard (see Eye 1222), we reported that the "preferred bidder" was a consortium caUed Soteria, named after the Greek god of safety because, we suggested, "they didn't know the
name of the Greek god of cock-ups". Our concerns were duly realised before Christmas when the deal mysteriously crashed.
Strangely, it wasn't the government that grounded the scheme: it seems Soteria willingly flew away instead.
Transport secretary Philip Hammond, confirming the deal's cancellation, said: "The preferred bidder has informed the Ministry of Defence within the last 4& hours that it has become aware of a possible issue in connection with its bid." lie said he would "set out our plans for proceeding to secure the provision of search and rescue helicopter capability in the future" as soon as he was able to.
The Soteria consortium includes the Canadian Helicopter Corporation (CHC) and French arms firm Thales. Its PFI bid has already put the Marine and Coastguard Agency under pressure. It was not due to start until 2012, which forced the coastguard to take out another £100m contract to supply helicopters in the interim. This second contract was marred by poor helicopter perfonnance. The supplier? None other than CHC, mainstay ofthe mysterious (and failed) PFI bid!
#1350 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007Location: In EnglandPosts: 386
Doesn't really get us any further IMO.
The Minister's statement before Christmas has not been interpreted by anyone offically in the loop so far,as stating that Soteria have withdrawn or been binned. This remains speculation...If Soteria really are about to withdraw or be disqualified, then I'm sure we will hear soon. Its in the nature of the politics.
The Interim might have been late but the Private Eye is just up to their old tricks of being cynical and sarcastic.....many have cause to be very grateful to the CHC crews and ac operating out of the Interim bases for the last few years....
Last edited by Tallsar : 12th Jan 2011 at 18:51.
#1351 (permalink) Probationary PPRuNer
Join Date: Apr 2008Location: WycombePosts: 2
#1352 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2008Location: In the CountryPosts: 76
#1353 (permalink)
Join Date: Oct 2000Location: The small African nationPosts: 393
PE have taken the well-publicised hiatus in SAR-H and dressed it up as a complete collapse of the programme. Now that may be true, but there is no evidence in the public domain that it is. And there is no evidence in the PE article that they know anything that the rest of us don't. Now PE have a long-term (and in my personal opinion absolutely valid) downer on PFI and this is one of the biggest PFIs in current negotiation. Therefore they are likely to challenge the entire concept.
Sven
still seeking employment
#1354 (permalink)
Wrongly accused Hunt Ducker
Join Date: Sep 2007Location: PPRuNePosts: 1,139
Quote:
The Prince is an RAF search-and-rescue pilot and his intervention last month appears to have had some success. In a highly unusual move, Downing Street sources revealed the approach after the Prime Minister hinted at royal involvement in the process. It emerged that Prince William talked to Mr Cameron about the issue while the two men were in Zurich as part of England's 2018 World Cup bid team. At Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Cameron was pressed on planned changes to the air-sea rescue and coastguard services.
He told MPs: "I have been lobbied extensively about air and sea rescue, including by people from all walks of life if I can put it that way."
That tantalising answer was enough to force Downing Street sources to disclose that Prince William had spoken to Mr Cameron. The Ministry of Defence and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency provide a 24-hour military and civil helicopter search-and-rescue service from 12 bases around the country. The service is provided by the RAF, the Royal Navy and a civilian helicopter service.
Under the Coalition’s plans, the service would be privatised – with RAF, Navy and Coastguard crews replaced by pilots employed by a private company in a multi-billion pound deal.
Prince William, 28, is based at RAF Valley, on Anglesey, north Wales. His daily duties include supporting mountain rescue, the coastguard and air ambulance services.
Over Christmas, he was part of a mission in which the helicopter he was flying was diverted to pick up a life support machine and transport specialist staff from Leicester to Manchester to try to help Sarah Bowden, 20, who was suffering from swine flu while pregnant.
Despite the emergency mission, she died 11 days after the birth of her son Harry.
Prince William’s determined intervention on behalf of the search-and-rescue service seems to have been at least partly successful.
Two weeks after the Prince and Mr Cameron spoke in Switzerland, transport ministers postponed an announcement about the planned sell-off. The reason given was that the preferred bidder, a consortium made up of Sikorsky, Thales, CHC Helicopter and Royal Bank of Scotland, said it had become aware of a “possible issue” in connection with its bid. Under the plan, the group, known as Soteria, would take over responsibility from the RAF, with Sikorsky providing its S92 helicopters and Thales supplying the electronics.
A St James’s Palace spokesman refused to confirm whether Prince William had lobbied the Prime Minister on the future of the Search and Rescue Force, adding: “We never comment on conversations that might or might not have happened between the Prime Minister and members of the Royal family.
“The Prince is a serving officer in the Royal Air Force and he will follow any orders or changes that may or may not happen in the future.”
Strict protocol forbids politicians from discussing conversations they have had with members of the Royal family, and even a hint from a prime ministerial aide about topics that have been discussed will meet with strong disapproval among courtiers.
The Prime Minister’s weekly audiences with the Queen are not attended by civil servants or courtiers and the Queen was reported to have been unimpressed with Tony Blair’s decision to reveal in his memoirs snippets of the conversation he had with her when he was first invited to form a government.
The Prince of Wales is known to have lobbied politicians or their advisers in the past, but his interventions have come to light through leaked documents or court papers, rather than from politicians.
Last year, it emerged that the Prince of Wales had expressed strong opinions about the proposed redevelopment of Chelsea Barracks in west London during a meeting with Sir Simon Milton, the deputy mayor of London.
The £3 billion plan was scrapped by Qatari Diar, the Qatari royal family’s development company, after the Prince complained to senior Qatari royals.
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#1355 (permalink)
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002Location: CanadaAge: 53Posts: 466
#1356 (permalink)
Join Date: Oct 2002Location: All over the placePosts: 53
Crab brought down SAR-H!
Next week the RAF will be ordering S92's.
#1357 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2000Location: UKPosts: 880
'Yellow hatters' Rule!
#1358 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2000Location: EGDCPosts: 3,001
Next week the RAF will be ordering S92's. ![]( "<a href=")
#1359 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007Location: In EnglandPosts: 386
#1360 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2005Location: Land of the AnglesPosts: 244
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/405129-sar-h-contract-soteria-preferred-bidd...
