Australia’s Katrina moment
Published 29 January 2011
Corruption and the cult of the market have made a natural disaster into an outrage.
When you fly over the earth's oldest land mass, Australia, the view can be shocking. There are scars as long as European countries, the result of erosion. Salt pans shimmer where once native vegetation grew. This is almost impossible to reverse. The first to die are the most vulnerable species. According to the International Union for Conservation of Nature, Australia's devastation of its natural environment has caused more mammal extinction than in any other country. The iconic koala is used to attract tourists; the Queen and Oprah Winfrey are photographed cuddling one, unaware that this unique creature has enriched the state of Queensland for decades with its industrial slaughter and the sale of its skin to Britain and America. Today, the belatedly "protected" koala is threatened not by flood or drought, but rapacious land-clearing, of which Queensland is the national champion. Each year, according to the World Wide Fund for Nature, the state in effect destroys 100 million birds, mammals and reptiles.
The land is "cleared" by fire or machinery, often with a heavy chain tied between two bulldozers: a technique developed by Queensland's most notorious land-clearer, the late Sir Johannes Bjelke-Petersen, the conservative state premier for 19 years, whose self-awarded knighthood was given for "services to parliamentary democracy", such as winning gerrymandered elections with 20 per cent of the vote. In 1992, a defamation jury found that Bjelke-Petersen had been bribed "on a large scale and on many occasions". Two of his ministers and his police commissioner were jailed. Lucrative land became a prize for cronies known as the "white shoe brigade". Brown envelopes of cash were handed over at a five-star hotel recently lapped by floodwaters in the centre of Brisbane.
Wrong type of flood
Last May, the Queensland Labor government announced that it had sold swaths of the state's forests and plantations to Hancock Queensland Plantations, a subsidiary of a US-based timber multinational. Queensland has many low-lying flood plains on which developers have been allowed to make fortunes selling plots. The victims of the great flood have been mostly poor people. Most could not afford insurance, or discovered that their policy did not include "types of flood".
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, says an ACCC report, deliberately stopped insurance companies from agreeing a common definition of flood so that "insurers will continue to compete vigorously by product differentiation" through offerings that use many definitions of "flood" to specify which risks are covered and which are excluded. The callousness of this imposed confusion is emblematic of how the Australian elite have treated those ruined by an inland ocean the size of Germany and France combined. Flooding also struck Brazil in April and Sri Lanka in December, but the disaster in Australia is far more revealing; for Australia is a "first-world" country with advanced technology and communications, and yet tens of thousands of people received no emergency warning. Here, the cult of the "market" has diminished public services and infrastructure budgets, and divided by wealth a society that once boasted the most equitable spread of personal income in the world.
Little of this is discussed in a media where Rupert Murdoch owns 70 per cent of state capital-city press. When the leader of the Greens, Bob Brown, dared suggest that the Queensland flood was due in part to "the burning of fossil fuels [causing] the hottest oceans we've ever seen off Australia", he was told to apologise to the mining industry. In the decade to 2005, says the Wilderness Society, "the amount of land-clearing in Australia was so extensive that the greenhouse gases produced rivalled the amount produced by cars and trucks".
Divide and rule
A feature of the floods has been the PR campaigns of leading right-wing Labor Party politicians, notably the prime minister, Julia Gillard, and the Queensland premier, Anna Bligh, who have talked up the "Aussie battler" spirit in the face of "Mother Nature's wrath". The media echo of this evokes Sir Johannes's description of spinning a line to journalists as "feeding the chooks". In truth, successive governments have rejected, ignored or suppressed the recommendations of their own experts which, if acted upon, could have saved Brisbane.
In 1999, a report commissioned by Brisbane City Council warned of "significantly higher" flooding than in the last great flood in 1974. When this was leaked, an alleged cover-up was referred to the state's crime and misconduct commission, but nothing happened.
Andrew Short, director of the coastal studies unit at the University of Sydney, compares the Queensland flood with the scandal of New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. "This is something we have been waiting for . . ." he said. "Why were there no levees to protect the low-lying towns? . . . Why are major highways and railways still below flood level?"
Prime Minister Gillard has so far offered crumbs from a treasury in surplus, that subsidises the fossil-fuel industry with A$10bn (£6.2bn) and that is pledged to spend A$1.1bn on Australia's mercenary "commitment" to American wars. Having sent just 13 helicopters to rescue the stranded, Gillard appointed Major General Mick Slater to lead the recovery operation: an admission that the civilian emergency services had been so depleted, they could not cope. Slater's most interesting statement has been a threat. "There is no reason why we won't have [success]," he said, "unless . . . the media start to become divisive within the community and then, if there are areas of failure, I think I could find the reason and track it back to different areas within the media." He was not challenged. The chooks were fed.
127 comments from readers
- Mrs.Josephine Hyde-Hartley
29 January 2011 at 21:20I don't think this Major general intends to be threatening. Surely it's his job in this context to be vigilant about all manner of consequences that might emanate in effect from the unregulated media executive eg rumours that seem positively designed to set citizen against citizen.
- Mr.Wom Bhatt
30 January 2011 at 01:36The ghost of a former great Oz institution looks out over this disaster. The "Commonwealth Bank" was set up in 1911 as a "people's" bank. It was able to provide loans to the nation to fund the World War 1 effort and various development projects at significantly below market interest rates. It was progressively downgraded in its functions to allow its role to be taken over by the private banks. It was eventually sold off under the right wing labour PM and now "International Chairman" of Lazard's Bank, Paul Keating. Instead of taxing the people of Oz with a new levy to fund the reconstruction the Commonwealth Bank could have been used to provide funds which would have both cheap and generate further wealth for the "Commonwealth" instead of further weakening the public sector and burdening the people. The institutional parasites ( bankers, lawyers and development czars ) are about to be the recipients of yet another transfer of wealth from the public sector to the private sector. Long live Economic Liberalism ? Not ! Ned Kelly is most probably rolling in his grave.
- ML Atkin
30 January 2011 at 04:03While I agree with 99% of what you say I would like to point out one inaccuracy. The "inland ocean the size of Germany and France combined" is incorrect.
The first person to use that phrase was a Reuters journalist and he was wrong. Have a look at the NASA satellite images taken during that period and you'll be hard put to find floods other than directly alongside the affected rivers in the south east and the central Queensland coast. The combined area of France and Germany would be an area more than half that of Queensland.
- Luddite
30 January 2011 at 08:55Unlike Katrina. What we didn't see with the Australia’s floods was the widespread violence, murder, looting and rape we witnessed in New Orleans. What we saw in Australia was a civilized response to a natural disaster.
- Mr. Divine
30 January 2011 at 10:48The only flying John has done over QLD is on magic mushrooms.
- Chris
30 January 2011 at 13:12Good points in this article - so I don't understand why Mr Divine above feels the need to mock.
The fresh (albeit polluted) water from the floods will also pose a threat to the Great Barrier Reef and to the habitat of creatures such as dugongs.
- Hans Castorp
30 January 2011 at 21:47Jeez. Is there a human corpse John Pilger WON'T use as a soapbox?
No mention then that Brazil has been run by a left-winger for a long time, but rescue services were no better equipped and mortality rates much higher. Nope - it was capitalism, not water, that caused this mess, Comrades.
Also, the usual bald lies: "Prime Minister Gillard has so far offered crumbs from a treasury in surplus". Erm, the federal gubmint has given loads of aid to Queensland, and is implementing an equitable tax, exempting flood victims, to help pay for the clean-up and so on. But that doesn't fit The Troof, so it's not happening!
Makes you wonder whether the NS even bother to fact-check Pilger's jeremiads. Perhaps they're inured to the fact that if they did, nothing would remain.
Shameless stuff, as per.
Bring on the petal-throwers...
"ThankyouJohnyouarealonevoiceoftruthinawildernessofcorporatemedialiesandanyonewhodisagreesisashillfortheMurdochZionistconspiracy" .... and so on.
Why oh why can't the NS ditch this mendacious old turkey?
- Mr. Divine
30 January 2011 at 22:50'Here, the cult of the "market" has diminished public services and infrastructure budgets,'
John, there are huge government infrastructure projects going on all over Australia at the moment. For starters, just near me, the Hume highway is being made into a two lane highway and the project is huge, mile after mile of trucks, plant machinery, temporary huts etc. Apparently south of Brisbane there is massive road construction. Not to mention the replacement of all wooden railway sleepers with concrete ones all over the country.
Then there is the school building projects. EVERY SINGLE school in Australia is having a new school hall or amenities hall built by an army of tradies
Why is John Pilger saying there is a reduced public infrastructure budget? It doesn't fit the facts. There again when do facts matter to just another journo with a chip on his shoulder?
- Mr. Divine
31 January 2011 at 05:51I agree Jonny B. QLD under you won and lost. Some parts of the land were destroyed by your eagerness to develop whatever the consequences. But modern day has moved on. there are a lot of smart people in Australia who are well aware of the need to protect the land from overdevelopment. The Land care program is huge in Ausralia as is the national park staff.. and rightly so. There is no doubt that government is here to protect ourselves from vicious property development especially in areas of natural beauty (which is in fact all the earth!). The Australian government has done an excellent job in many respects. Credit where credit is due. Criticism where criticism is due. That's the problem John you're always just seeing it from a telescope fixed to a 'standard' viewpoint of the world. And you twist facts to suit your 'bad' view of the situation.
Maybe you know this, but the real action in writing at the moment is on this part of the telescope, looking at you, looking at the world.
- andyg
31 January 2011 at 20:16Great article.
Water water everywhere and so the people sink,
water, water everywhere.....................
yet never a drop to drink.
- andyg
31 January 2011 at 20:26@Mr Divine.
You may believe that this article is tunnelled vision but look to the similarities of Brazil and what happens to those who try to stand in the way of the multinationals. Look for the story of someone called Chico Mendez.
It's about profit now not people.
- Mr. Divine
01 February 2011 at 02:17@andyg: I don't deny that profit has won many a development battle and government needs to intervene in order to protect the land for the 'greater good'. But the article by John Pilger is about Australia (not Brazil), and in that article there are many false statements.
Big business doesn't always win in Australia and there are nowadays many government programs that protect the environment. What I am saying is that John is looking at the situation and inaccurately reporting on what is happening in AUSTRALIA because he is approaching it from a narrow perspective and trying to report/change the facts to fit his perspective.
But it doesn't work for people like me and Hans who are willing to question every reporter, be it left or right wing. The facts have got to stand up and as I have already pointed out, they don't. That's a problem for not just me but for people who want some sort of the left progression. To me people like John Pilger and Michael Moore can't be taken seriously because they misrepresent the truth.
- EhtchTee
01 February 2011 at 03:20Overzealous farming in Western Oz has caused them problems in the past.
The Ozzies taking their land for granted is not a new thing.
- Claddach
01 February 2011 at 11:05To paraphrase what Mary McCarthy famously said of Lillian Hellman - every word that John Pilger writes is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'.
- E B
01 February 2011 at 13:58Fair doos, John me old mate, fair doos!
I reckon if WikiLeaks hasen't had a go about it yet, we must be doing alright!
- Hans Castorp
01 February 2011 at 17:26Rock on Mr Divine, rock on
- andyg
01 February 2011 at 20:45@Mr Divine
I wrote 'similarities of' ' There are also great development projects in Brazi, (ie the similarities) but that doesn't stop the profiteers from going about their business in the same way. I agree that governments should step in " for the good" but it this good that people can't agree on from the left, right or centre of politics. We only have to look closer to home and to the heated discussions that are occuring with our beloved coalition.
I'm quite aware that big business doesn't always win over in Australia and that many Australian people believe in returning land to the original inhabitants. From the environmental perspective I believe that it was the Australian Trade Unions that coined the phrase 'a race to the bottom' when environmental issues became the big debate. Since then I'm afraid that land reform has tipped in favour of the profiteer rather than for the good of the people despite all the good work of which you have mentioned.
- abrad
01 February 2011 at 21:09@Hans Castorp & Mr. Divine
Hi Paid Trolls! Petal thrower here.
"...people like me and Hans who are willing to question every reporter, be it left or right wing."
The challenge: Please could you both post some links to examples of some of your other 'questions'.
From past articles your dedicated campaign against Pilger is clear for all to see. Knowing you scrutinize right wing journalists, or ANY establishment upholding hawks, would allow everyone to see you devout truth tellers in a far more balanced light.
I eagerly await your responses. I know you often check up on the page and post with diligence. The prospect of reading your 'balanced' criticism of all journalists and not just anti-establishment ones excites me greatly.
I think it only fair with your dedicated scrutiny of John, we get to scrutinize you and your motives a little.
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 02:55@abrad: I regularly debate on telegraph and the daily mail blog sites ... do you really want me to go back and find my past comments and put links on this site?
Some of my views include:
1. a very strong opposition to the royal family and the lords.
2. a view that 85% of defence spending should be cut.
3. a view that the working week should be drastically reduced
4. that the government should use defence land to start communal housing projects
As you can imagine these views are challenged by people who are on the 'right' side of politics and see me as some sort of communist. To me, it isn't about right and left.
abrad, you seem to under the impression that just because one is against John Pilger you are therefore in the other camp. Society isn't black and white, there are lots of shades of gray. There are many good things about Western societies and the way free enterprise is allowed to operate. For the left it is important to recognise these attributes.
Constantly, being negative about 'Western' society is counterproductive. This is especially true when members of the so called left present information inaccurately. People are turned off by reports of the like of John Pilger because they can see the inaccuracy and misinformation. You can't counter right wing lies by left wing lies. It's bad for the movement... but obviously not too bad for the back pockets of Moore and Pilger.
My motive is to shake up the traditional way the left is trying to promote change. At the moment it is all negative. It is about pointing what is wrong with Western society often by misinformation and inaccurate facts. There is no movement that provides solutions. What exactly is needed and how can it be changed? And I don't mean 'revolution' or civil disobedience.
What do people really want in their lives? And how can you use the government and free enterprise to make those changes? If you look back at some of my past comments in Laurie Penny's blog for instance, you will realise that I have presented answers.
- Citizen Sane
02 February 2011 at 03:30In regards to Mr Divine, while I agree with you about the need to question all sides of the journalistic divide I find your comments as heavy handed as the views expressed by JP in this article.
I have lived in SEQ for the last 30 years and during this time I have seen a vast increase in residential and industrial development which not only neglects history but snubs its noses at common sense. All tiers of government line there pockets with the moneys accumulated by this vast development but are slow to dip into the coffers to upgrade existing infrastructure to cope with this growth. Not only did my house get inundated with a metre of water recently but for the past 2 years I have dealt with flash flooding due to the increase in high density residential construction in the immediate vicinity of my house, in which the local infrastructure is unable to support.
Yes there are currently large scale infrastructure programs in development but how overdue are they. You mention the motorway upgrade to the south west of Brisbane, the first studies regarding the need for upgrade date back nearly 20 years, the upgrade will be redundant by the time construction is finished.
The 'education revolution' projects are as much of a stimulus package to the construction sector as they are a knee jerk reaction to the lack of infrastructure in the schooling sector.
I apologise I have digressed, in regards to this story though, I believe that yes it is painting a picture with broad strokes but that only reiterates how broad the problem actually is.
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 07:43@ Citizen Sane: Yes I agree with you that development is a problem. The problem in SE QLD for the last 30 years has been the influx of new immigrants and how to house them .. you got to have housing development, there's no two ways about it. Especially on the scale that has happened in SE QLD.
The other thing in Australia is the premium of 'water frontage' .. near or at the water. Take me to the water says David Bryne of Talking Heads and this is certainly true of Australia. You should have sold earlier and headed to higher ground! I did.
I'm a pom, aged 50, came here in 79/80 hitched around, did the same in 86, and then emigrated in 95. I live in the Riverina although I have 'lived in many of the major and minor places of Australia and other parts of the world as well as being BIg backpacker/world cyclist. I have 5 acres and I live the Aussie dream. I have a ford at the front of my house that floods (but not in the house) and I get different quotes for the jobs I need done, if you know what I mean?
And that's the thing if you know what I mean ... LYING. To me the extent of lies in Australia is incredible. Now there's lying all over the world but so there is in Australia?
What is lying?. When you cross reference facts, I mean FACTS (we can have a philosophical argument if you want) then you can't accept what someone is saying if the facts do not match.
Now this is different from an opinion. I participate in Laurie Penny's blog but I rarely take issue with her because she doesn't present inaccurate facts. She presents an opinion that I disagree with but she doesn't try to fool me/INSULT my intelligence by inaccurate facts.
And I'm sure that what gets Hans' back up as well. John Pilger is insulting my intelligence, and not only that he is insulting other people's intelligence by presenting inaccurate facts.
Now can the left progress if we have spokesmen of this ilk?
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 08:33@Citizen Insane: The facts of real estate are for all to see. Rising water levels .. it's going to be a fact of life. Volcanoes erupting.. it's going to be a fact of life. Rising sea levels, it's going to happen .. maybe, probably.
If you want to buy into 'water nearness' then there is going to be a risk. You take take your money and YOU make your choice. Do you want to be handed everything for life?
I think the development of SE QLD or in fact most of Australia has not been perfect .. I'll give it an 7 out of 10. It's not bad, its not brilliant. It could be better. I live in one of the best spots in Australia. I have flat 5 acres backing a big reserve and am able to walk to the shops and a lake. I have loads of 200 year old gum trees and an ace house. I can see real estate like no one else can because I lived and travelled in so many places.
Like I said you take YOUR money and you make your choice.
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 09:43Read the biography of Robert FitzRoy, the captain of The Beagle.
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 10:40FitzRoy 'invented' the 'weather forecast'.
- stevem
02 February 2011 at 17:23At last the truth about what has been happening in Australia. The same things that are happening all over the world. Some people can,t stomach it but Pilger gives it to us straight. The world,s greatest living journalist.
- andyg
02 February 2011 at 19:15Mr Divine, you are now talking environment but don't define what you mean by the word. I'm glad that you have the thing's that you say you have and given your correspondance I get the gut feeling that you have earned them with honest intent of which I take my hat off to you.
But part and parcel of the environment debate whether in Australia or elsewhere is why are the waters rising, and why is mother nature fighting back? This is the crossroads of where those profiteers are now sending the PR people to give the lies and disinformation, again whether it be in Australia or elswhere. If it wasn't for people like John Pilger bringing this into the open then worse atrocities will most certainly occur in your country and Mine. Power Mr Divine, true power begins with the land and ends with the gun. All the things you mention including your computer, home, car, etc etc began by been extracted from the land.
- Mr. Divine
02 February 2011 at 20:57Virtually all construction involves destruction.
- andyg
02 February 2011 at 21:11@Mr Divine
Don't take it to heart, but thanks.
- MaynardG
03 February 2011 at 08:09Pigerisation is still alive. What a load of nonsense I'm not sure you are doing the New Statesman any good having this clown writing this rubbish.
- Hans Castorp
03 February 2011 at 15:17"Paid trolls!"
Who on earth would be paying me? "The corporations"/the gubmint/Rupert Murdoch axis I assume.
I suppose Mr Divine and I can take accusation as a compliment on our apparent professionalism, and proof positive of what deluded cretins Pilger fans are.
I assure you folks, I slag off Pilger because his writing appauls me; more than merely a travesty of journalism and on the level of human behaviour.
- abrad
03 February 2011 at 19:03@Hans Castorp & Mr. Divine
Hi Paid Trolls! Petal thrower here.
"...people like me and Hans who are willing to question every reporter, be it left or right wing."
The challenge: Please could you both post some links to examples of some of your other 'questions'.
From past articles your dedicated campaign against Pilger is clear for all to see. Knowing you scrutinize right wing journalists, or ANY establishment upholding hawks, would allow everyone to see you devout truth tellers in a far more balanced light.
I eagerly await your responses. I know you often check up on the page and post with diligence. The prospect of reading your 'balanced' criticism of all journalists and not just anti-establishment ones excites me greatly.
I think it only fair with your dedicated scrutiny of John, we get to scrutinize you and your motives a little.
- abrad
03 February 2011 at 19:09@Hans Castorp & Mr. Divine
*Yes, Mr Divine links please. Old links please, I simply do not believe you.
*Your unhealthy interest in Pilger's articles, criticising every single article despite the fact that "...his writing appauls me" (Hans). Such disdain for Pilger's journalism, such an unhealthy interest.
FOR ANY READERS NEW TO THIS SITE LOOK BACK THROUGH ALL OF PILGER'S ARTICLES AND SEE THE COMMENTS OF MR.DIVINE & HANS CASTORP...
YOU DECIDE ON THEIR OBJECTIVITY.
- abrad
03 February 2011 at 19:29For the record I'm not interested in the Right or Left, only whats Right and Wrong.
"What is lying?. When you cross reference facts, I mean FACTS (we can have a philosophical argument if you want) then you can't accept what someone is saying if the facts do not match."- Mr.Divine
Your genuine concern about 'the lies'(?) of a journalist with a relatively small audience, but support of the perpetrators of those who lie to the entire world (by a total distortion of 'the facts') every single day, which has a far greater impact on peoples lives, only reinforces my suspicion of you.
Links.
- andyg
03 February 2011 at 20:52Nice one abrad.
- andyg
03 February 2011 at 20:59@maynardg
maybe a clown but at least I don't need the makeup.
Sticks and stones kid............sticks and stones.
- Mr. Divine
03 February 2011 at 21:52@ abrad, you still don't get it.
I'll say it again, John Pilger uses inaccurate facts to support his argument. It insults my intelligence that he expects me to believe facts that are not true. He is treating the reader like an idiot. He is treating you and me like an idiot. I might agree with some of his sentiments but I take offense when he lies to me.
Maybe you don't mind people lying to you because you think he is on your 'side' but I do. Maybe you think it doesn't matter because the lies of the right are greater than those of little Johnny Pilger or bigger Michael Moore.
I don't want the left to be associated with liars. How can the movement progress when you have spokesmen who lie? How can the movement progress when you have people who are supporting the liars?
abrad are you really believing everything Pilger is writing? And if not, why are you supporting a liar?
- Mr. Divine
04 February 2011 at 04:03John Pilger wrote: "Salt pans shimmer where once native vegetation grew. This is almost impossible to reverse."
This is an example of inaccurate information. Salt pans are dry lakes. These occur when the water in the lake disappear which has happened for thousands of years. If there was a lot of salt in the lake the pans look white,: they can be brownish like the one in the back of my property when there isn't significant amounts of salt.
These pans have occurred for thousands of years. They are not recently the result of western agriculture. John says, 'native vegetation once grew here'. There is no dry vegetation growing in a lake!
Do you see what I mean about using inaccurate information to try and prove a point? To me either John Pilger is ignorant on what he is talking about or purposely using inaccurate information to prove his point.
How many more inaccuracies do you want me to point out?
- Mr. Divine
04 February 2011 at 05:44see: http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/01/student-prot...
see feb 4 5;33 comment.
I never link .. I don't even have a mobile phone... I couldn't be arsed with that. I just write although I copy and paste what I write. I don't record where I have written it .. I live in the now I write for myself now although if the Murdoch press or any other body /establishment wants to donate to ME they can go ahead!
- Mr. Divine
04 February 2011 at 08:25@abrad/andgyg: you know something about ME. If you read Laurie Penny's blog you'll know more. But what about you two? What are your personal lives? You wanna know about me well I've showed your where. Now what about you? Who am I talking to abrad, andyg? Who are YOU? I've already given you some information (personal) about me. Now how about you? I dictate what information I give YOU on who you are. So who are you abrad?
Not up to the challenge?
LISTEN CAREFULLY ABRAD/ANDYG: People know ME but nobody knows who you TWO ARE. You see abrad you think that Hans and I are in conjunction or somehow in 'partnership' on this blogshpere. But you're wrong. People KNOW WHO I am. They don't really know Hans (isn't that right Hans?) and they don't abrad and andyg. YOU see to get where I am you have to reveal something about your personal life .. A
nd I've already done that. Bloggin is like when you answer the telephone and some telephone salesperson comes on the phone. WHO ARE YOU????????? Tell ME. I've told you. Until that happens I don't do anything you say .. got that? WHO THE F R U?
scouser//boozer/stonehad/prophet /comin out! right fing out otu otu tout outoutoutoutoutoutoutoutoutoutout
- andyg
04 February 2011 at 17:34So this is the debater out of his basket at long last, or should I say trolley. You were keen to tell me to stick to the debate when I mentioned Brazil as a comparator. Now it would seem that you want to say me, me, me. I couldn't give a damn about who you are. Socialists see exploitation and oppression of the mass in relation to the few. It is on this platform from which John Pilger writes. Get a life son as well as a phone and I'll give you a bell.
Toodle pip old boy.
- Mr. Divine
04 February 2011 at 22:08andyg; you haven't debated anything. You don't support anything you say with facts. You can't counter any of the points that Hans and I have made with regards to Pilger's inaccuracies. All you can do is cheer lead. "John is great because he is one of the left". All abrad does is accuse us of being conspirators and tries to make me search through archives of my past posts to 'prove' I criticise other people!
Why don't you two try and counter what Hans and I have said? That's a debate andyg, not your airhead ramblings. I've pointed out a number of factual inaccuracies in this article. A debate involves you counteracting my points not going off into wild tangents be it Brazil or 'true power begins with the land and ends with the gun' rubbish. What silly slogans and expressions you have stuck in your airhead as well as ultra common insults: 'get a life' ... you sound like a teenage girl from ten years back.
And who the hell writes 'toodle pip old boy' ? Do you really think that is an insult or something or even funny .. its definitely not original. But what is original about you? You certainly haven't told me anything I don't already know nor have you managed to present a coherent argument on any of your points.
Like I said earlier you write airhead rambling that go off on unrelated tangents and your attempted insults are unoriginal. You need to get your head straight because at the moment it is full of woolly nonsense. And the more you try to insult other people with worn out phrases from the past the more stupid you look.
I look forward to hearing your next contribution on a NS article.
By the way, who are YOU?
- Mr. Divine
04 February 2011 at 22:13http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Niña
This explains what is happening in Queensland and Brazil, not Pilger's inaccurate article.
- andyg
05 February 2011 at 09:47"The only flying John has done over QLD is on magic mushrooms".
" not your airhead ramblings".
"What silly slogans and expressions you have stuck in your airhead as well as ultra common insults".
" you write airhead rambling ".
" You need to get your head straight because at the moment it is full of woolly nonsense".
@Citizen Insane
"John Pilger uses inaccurate facts to support his argument. It insults my intelligence
"To me either John Pilger is ignorant on what he is talking about ".
"WHO THE F R U? "
"@Citizen Insane."
"I'm a pom, aged 50, came here in 79/80."
" The problem in SE QLD for the last 30 years has been the influx of new immigrants".
So these are your definitions of debate? I will counter any point that you wish to make when I see you debating without insult. It occured to me from the start that anyone who doesn't agree with your uncircular view should be cast out and unworthy of a voice. You Mr Divine (The name itself been a bit of a clue) are nothing more than a cyber bully, and confronted with your own words becomes enraged.
Toodle pip gremlin.
- Mr. Divine
05 February 2011 at 12:03I'm never enraged. I'm laughing when I write and rather enjoy it when people insult me.. you should read what I have wrote in the past.. And actually I wasn't really insulting you... it was abrad I was having a dig at for trying to make me go back into blog archives and provide links .. who does he think I am .. his personal servant? But seeing as you got the hump by mistake I thought I'd string you a long a bit more .. just for the hell of it. I can pretend to be outraged. Man, you should be a pom in an Australian bush town... if you really want to know what it's like to be insulted/wound up on a daily basis. I apologise for arsing around.
Did you read my link? La Nina is the reason for the present flooding in Australia and Brazil. La Nina comes every 7 years or so. The rainfall this year has been huge everywhere in eastern Australia. Everywhere has had floods.
Pilger reckons that its due to bad farming methods that there is flooding. Nay it has been happening for centuries. Pilger says, that the Brisbane government could have prevented the flooding. Not really. The water has to go somewhere and honestly when you see a river flood it is massive. I mean bloody massive. You can have levee banks that stop it coming into one area but this only means it'll build up and go on to the next area even bigger. Take a look at a map of SE Queensland and you'll see other places before Brisbane: there will be levee banks in these places but like I said it just makes the water go somewhere else. By the time it hits Brisbane there is no stopping it. Its like a volcano. Maybe it is possible to put huge banks in central Brisbane but then the water has to go somewhere and there is Eastern Brisbane suburbs. In bush towns councils wont give planning permission in flood plains but Brisbane, well its too late.. and people here are obsessed with water nearness.
Now do you think you can counter/debate my view?
PS You can throw in a few insults if you want.
- Trotwood
05 February 2011 at 14:08Does John Pilger ever find anything nice to say about anybody?
- andyg
05 February 2011 at 14:43Kevin E. Trenberth is head of the Climate Analysis Section at the USA National Center for Atmospheric Research and a lead author of the 2001 and 2007 IPCC Scientific Assessment of Climate Change. He also serves, as far as I am aware on the Scientific Steering Group for the Climate variability and predictability program.
The floods in Queensland were a result of heavy precipitation caused by the tropical Cyclone 'Tasha' that combined with as you have correctly stated, a low during the peak of a La Nina. The 2010 La Nina weather pattern brought wetter conditions to eastern Australia and turned out to be the strongest since 1973.
According to Kevin Trenberth he sees climate change as a contributing factor in the unusually high precipitation rates. He attributes a half degree celsius rise in ocean temperatures around Australia to global warming which produces extra water vapor and intensifies the monsoon although others within the scientific community say that it is too early to draw such conclusions. Right or wrong these adverse effects bring multiple problems to fish and other species as an indirect result.
In addition, I also read that December 2010 was Queensland's wettest on record with record rainfall totals set in 100 plus locations for the month. Records show that it is the state's wettest spring since 1900 and the Australian continent's third wettest year on record.
Regardless of the facts there are still a whole set of differing complex set of interacting conditions and events that are carried out such as deforestation and events from further afield that act to this, what is now a global problem. From a debating platform it would be nice if human beings could bring about and agree a common consensus to relieve the suffering that's caused by such events but sadly I feel that we are still some way off that target. (Not marginalised to just Australia) The point of anger for me is that some see this as the green light for making money and others simply carry on as if this can remain as normal. The perspective that I see is from the viewpoint of those who suffer and have their lives destroyed by such events.
From such a perspective you then begin to question if such events are normal or whether humans have had a hand in creating such events. The IPCC agree with the latter where as others do not.
- abrad
05 February 2011 at 20:06@ Mr.Divine
I have no interest in debating with you. I have no interest in your person and have no intentions of discussing who I am. I do not like to even comment at all. My initial comment stemmed from the quote below in which my view of the Castorp and Co's campaign against Pilger, was challenged. I only thought it appropriate to give you an opportunity to enlighten me further, in which case I might give you and Castorp's comments more respect in future articles.
"...people like me and Hans who are willing to question every reporter, be it left or right wing."
The challenge: Please could you both post some links to examples of some of your other 'questions'.
You have still failed to do this.
I have wasted an entire afternoon trawling through the archives trying to find one example to justify your claimed impartiality. All I can find are comments of contempt for Pilger, anger at his apparent abhorrent journalism, dismissal for the general themes he discusses, mockery of those in agreement, coupled with a currant of underlying support for the status quo and agreed media narratives.
The challenge was to post an old link, not one made yesterday! Furthermore you haven't even posted one that pretends to show your claimed objectivity, this time you appear to mock the student movement against cuts (?) - subject to opinion, your comments certainly lack sincerity.
“Do you see what I mean about using inaccurate information to try and prove a point?” - Mr.Divine
“I don't want the left to be associated with liars...” - Mr.Divine
With your perceived commitment to honesty, integrity and facts presumably to aid the social concious and your anger at the apparent lack of it; let me make two assumptions about your self. That you believe Tony Blair and George Bush should be tried for War Crimes. And that you are a firm believer in the need for a new 9/11 inquiry, if only to explain how Tower 7 collapsed. Hmm Petal Thrower.
You sir have failed to convince me of your impartiality, and instead reinforced my opinion that your comments are not born out of a commitment to truth but instead part of a larger organised campaign against Pilger.
Forgive me if I continue to ignore your comments and instead marvel at the effort you all go to. I don't intend to enagae with you further.
- Mr. Divine
05 February 2011 at 23:44@abrad: You have got me. Like you said I am part of an organised campaign sponsored by the Bloomsbury Group and Rupert Murdoch to discredit John Pilger. Everything John writes is in fact the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I get paid 19 cents a word for comments I make against him while Hans only get 13.5 cents because he isn't as good as me.. true capitalism at work.
abrad you investigative journalism into my past comments and opinions ranks you there with the likes of John Pilger. it heartening to think that there are investigative minds like yourself and John Pilger who write that such things as 'Salt pans shimmer where once native vegetation grew.' I was trying to mislead the reader when I said that vegetation doesn't grow in lakes: if the truth be known rose bushes and apple trees grow in lakes and once the naughty European farmers came the lakes and the rose bushes disappeared and left ugly salt pans.
I beg for forgiveness .. I was only trying to make a quick buck. I'll give some of my ill gotten gains to charity.
- Mr. Divine
05 February 2011 at 23:59'The challenge: Please could you both post some links to examples of some of your other 'questions'.
You have still failed to do this.'
I told I can't be arsed trying to find out what I wrote in the past. As you have already discovered it take ages trying to find stuff so why should I bother? Besides the debate should have been you countering what I said about Pilger's inaccurate information. Until you do that then I don't need to do anything for you because in effect you haven't engaged in the debate. Counter my criticisms of the article.. that is a debate. Everything else (troll petal throwers, do this for me etc) is bluster.
Do you know what I am talking about? I doubt it. Hey look I'm at Blanchflower's article on double dip. Come and see someone really debate.
- John Global
06 February 2011 at 05:38The problem with JP is that he is stuck in the past. he doesn't even live in the country he bags.
While AUS is not perfect the country deals with its own misfortunes. It has not asked other countries for help.
In the wet season in Qld heavy rainfall and cyclones are pretty normal. It is just that this year both were abnormally severe. It is part of the La Nina weather pattern of the Pacific. A periodic occurrance.
I live in Sydney and last night was the hottest on record.
You don't go round blaming everyone and the government you just take a cold shower every couple of hours. We do have running water also in pipes in AUS.
Maybe JP should take a cold showers before writing his articles. So far he has not provided a common sense solution for the problems of the world.
- John Global
06 February 2011 at 05:53JP your saltpans have been full of water the last 12 months and will remain so while there is lots of rain.
Then when the next drought hit they will dry up over a couple of years .
For anyone interested the Pacific weather pattern affecting AUS is
La Nina, heavy rainfall in AUS especially in the tropical part.
El Nino, drought in AUS but the tropical north still has a wet season just not so severe.
Each of them usually take a number of years.
The other side of the Pacific in South America usually cops the opposite to AUS . Peru is the country where this is so obvious.
- Mr. Divine
06 February 2011 at 09:04@John Global: Yes I heard it was pretty hot in Sydney last night. Cool today .. thank God! It came through the Riverina yesterday night.
La Nina .. I wonder if Pilger knows about this. He appears ignorant to me about basic Australian geography.
- andyg
06 February 2011 at 10:08@John Global & Mr Divine.
In many areas, Australia's temperate zones and coastal ecosystems have been extensively altered, and many wetlands have been degraded. Other complex sets of interacting problems from what is now seen as human interference have only added to future problems for people living in Australia.
Climate change, and the introduction of plants and animals, are the agents of the radical change that are tearing through Australia's environment which has led to the dramatic decline in the distribution and abundance of many species, with natural resources such as water now going scarce. Other events such as deforestation have not helped the situation or offered solutions to the ongoing problems.
When deforestation occurs the salinity of the soil can greatly increase. As a result, saline water draining from such areas can affect downstream or downslope water quality. It is estimated that around 7% of the agricultural area of western Australia is suffering from this problem following deforestation. Moreover, studies in Australia's wet tropics show that soils have limited capacity to recover from deforestation. This adds to the deforestation's price tags. Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation estimate that land degradation costs around $1 billion annually. Because of clearing activities for agricultural land, around 13% of Australia's original vegetation has been removed since European settlement.
Overgrazing is one of the main pressures on biodiversity in Australia. Grazing and various agricultural improvement strategies have modified vast areas of grasslands and open grassy woodlands. In temperate ecosystems, less than 2% of the original grasslands remain. Further, overgrazing promotes desertification and erosion, and it is also seen as one cause of the spread of invasive plants.
Toodles
- andyg
06 February 2011 at 10:24"our actions over the coming few decades could create risks of major disruption to economic and social activity, later in this century and in the next, on a scale similar to those associated with the great wars and the economic depression of the first half of the 20th century. And it will be difficult or impossible to reverse these changes."
(The Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change).
- Mr. Divine
06 February 2011 at 22:53andyg; Yes you're absolutely right in what you have said. Agriculture has destroyed flora and fauna in Australia. and it has been to such an extent that there is problems with salinity in many areas. Nearly all Australians know this... there are buildings in my town with huge cracks caused by the rising salt levels.
Like I said before, all construction involves destruction. But people need to be fed, people have to be accomadated, roads need to connect, mines tapped . It is a balancing act.
Britain used to be covered with forests including the tops of the moors. Australia is pristine in comparison to the rest of the world .. it really is. and while the Australian governments have made mistakes in the past there are policies now in place that protect the natural environment to some extent... have you heard about the no-fishing zones in NSW coastal waters or the water license buy back scheme? I have watched 'Landline' a farmers TV program for the past 15 years and in it there are stories of farmers who have been successful in planting trees and reversing their past mistakes. .
My objection is the inaccuracies that Pilger presents in this article. I have not difficulty realising that people have in some respects destroyed the land.
- Colin SlossI
07 February 2011 at 06:09I agree with Mr Divine!
- andyg
07 February 2011 at 17:18Mr Divine, could you pick out one single item for me that you disagree with in the report. It would appear at this point in the debate that mouths have to be fed and that for people to get around there should be an infrastructure that can serve this function reasonably. I think that I can safely say that we agree on these points and also the adverse effects that saline water causes. I will also agree that all governments make mistakes so we can get that out of the way. And, all of Britain including the moors were tree lined. This came to an end with the introduction of the Royal Navy i.e. the reference to the gun earlier in the discussion. So if you could pick out 1 single item from the report that you feel is inaccurate I will only be too pleased to discuss it.
I await your next shot sire.
- andyg
07 February 2011 at 18:20P.S. Yes a programme was shown that explained the similarities of Australian desertification and what occured in the US with the homesteads. In Australia it explained that The land has been "cleared" by fire or machinery, often with a heavy chains tied between two bulldozers: this is a technique developed by Queensland's most notorious land-clearer, the late Sir Johannes Bjelke-Petersen.
Hope this answers your latter point.
I still await your next shot sire.
- Gideon Polya
07 February 2011 at 20:12Good article by John Pilger. One wonders when look-the-other-way Australians will finally join the dots and realize the extent to which cowardly, corrupt Lib-Lab politicians have betrayed them by inaction over man-made climate change.
Climate scientists inform us that because the weather is variable one cannot attribute the severity of specific events such as the La Nina-connected Australian flood and Cyclone Yasi disasters to man-made climate change - but that this cannot be excluded either. They also tell us that increase in such events is predicted by climate models; that there has already been a 4-10 fold warming-associated increase in severe floods since the 1950s; that ocean temperatures are increasing; that severe cyclones have doubled in recent decades; that the area burned each year in the Western US has increased 5-fold in 4 decades; and that global warming means increased humidity, increased precipitation (for numerous expert, science-based views on man-made climate change and floods and cyclones see https://sites.google.com/site/300orgsite/climate-change-floo... and https://sites.google.com/site/300orgsite/scientists-cyclones ).
Greens leader and senator Dr Bob Brown has sensibly demanded that the major GHG polluters such as the gas and coal industries should be taxed to pay for the damage they cause via climate change. Indeed, extreme weather aside, it can be estimated that carbonaceous fuel burning pollutants kill about 10,000 Australians every year (see: https://sites.google.com/site/yarravalleyclimateactiongroup/... ) .
Instead, the do nothing, pro-coal, pro-gas, pro-Zionist, pro-war, anti-renewable energy Lib-Labs support a $9 billion pa subsidy for fossil fuel burning (that should be used for post-disaster reconstruction) and $1 billion pa for a criminal and unwinnable Afghan War that so far has killed 4.5 million Afghans, this including 2.3 million avoidable Afghan infant deaths (money and resources that should be used for flood relief rather than for passively killing Asian children).
Climate criminal, Lobbyocracy and Murdochracy Apartheid Australia is a world leader in annual per capita greenhouse gas (GHG) pollution but its Zionist US-perverted look-the-other-way culture means that its Lib-Lab politicians still won't accept that it is fouling its own nest, with the last month alone seeing record floods from Queensland to Tasmania, the worst cyclone for a century and disastrous bushfires in Perth.
- Mr. Divine
08 February 2011 at 01:58andyg: I have no problems with what you said but I get annoyed by the likes of Pilger and Gideon Polya trying to mislead the reader by inaccurate statements and hyperbole. Maybe they think that to counter the lies of the right it is necessary to throw in some counter lies but by doing so they rub people up the wrong way. In effect Pilger and Polye are enemies of the left. Think about it you liars.
- Mr. Divine
08 February 2011 at 02:42Here is an example of an obvious lie by Gideon:
'Lib-Labs support a $9 billion pa subsidy for fossil fuel burning'
There is no such subsidy for miners. In fact, they are heavily taxed by the government.
You see both are trying to paint a negative picture of the Australian government and are prepared to mislead, use hyperbole, and present lies in order to do so. What they don't realise is that people know they are being lied to and are put off left wing views by such insults to their intelligence. These people are enemies of the left.
- Gideon Polya
08 February 2011 at 06:29@ Mr Divine & readers of this thread: the bald assertion of "obvious lie" is false; false, ad hominem abuse is no substitute for sensible, courteous interlocution and is the more obnoxious when made with the courage of anonymity.
There is a legislated subsidy of about A$9 billion per annum for fossil fuel burning in Australia according to the research of Dr Chris Riedy, "Energy and transport subsidies in Australia”, Institute for Sustainable Futures, University of Technology, Sydney (UTS), 2007: http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/australia/resources/re... .
Dr Chris Riedy is a Research Director at the Institute for Sustainable Futures with more than twelve years experience as a researcher, consultant and author on sustainability policy. He has particular expertise in energy policy, climate change response and social change initiatives (see: http://www.green.uts.edu.au/courses/presenters/riedy.html ).
See also Dr Chris Riedy, "Subsidies that encourage fossil fuel use in Australia", 2003: http://www.isf.uts.edu.au/publications/CR_2003_paper.pdf .
- Mr. Divine
08 February 2011 at 11:15Read the report. The report does not mention the amount of tax paid by companies. It only mentions 'indirect' subsidies: money obtained by companies when the government doesn't tax them enough. There is money given to companies directly by government.
So lets start with BHP. It paid 6.3 billion dollars in tax in 2009. It didn't receive anything from the government.
more to come.
- Joffemannen
08 February 2011 at 16:05It's good to read one of these threads through from time to time, to clearly see that Mr. Divine and the likes know nothing. Critizising the facts about e.g. subsidies in an article, when you do not know what subsidies are...
Now I'm happy again, and have hopes that through information we can come a long way in improving the world
- andyg
08 February 2011 at 17:11@Colin Slosll
Your quiet mate, do you still agree with Mr Divine?
- andyg
08 February 2011 at 17:13@ Mr Divine.
I don't wish to sound cheeky but where has Hans gone?
- andyg
08 February 2011 at 17:16@Joffemannen
Couldn't agree more.
- andyg
08 February 2011 at 17:58@ Gideon Polya.
Not to mention the polluting of fresh water springs in Iraq where infants are now born with terrible deformaties. Of course the US deny this and state that these deformaties are the consequence of a poor diet. Earlier in the debate regarding power, I explained to Mr Divine that power begins with the land. He believed that these are the comments of an airbrain. With regards to the Australian tax payer, I wonder if Mr Divine and co realise that not only is he supporting the destruction of his prestine second home but the brutal mutulation of children and adults throughout the world.
P.S. It was Chico Mendez who stated that "at first I thought that I was savng the job's of rubber tappers. Then it occured to me that I was actually saving the rainforest; in the end I realised that all that I was doing was saving this beautiful planet from destruction. The same is true in your homeland Mr Divine where brothers further afield actually care what happens there.
Brothers and sisters of the world unite.
I still await your next shot sire.
- andyg
08 February 2011 at 20:19It was reported in May 2008 by ACF executive director Don Henry that Australian taxpayers will have to give BHP Billiton an estimated $117 million in diesel fuel subsidies during the four-year expansion of the company’s Olympic Dam mine.
The company's annual average diesel rebate from tax payers is estimated to be between $130 - $138 million dollars.
Looks like Pilger and Gideon have a point.
I still awaite your next shot sire.
- Mr. Divine
08 February 2011 at 23:56Andyg; is a rebate a subsidy? No it is a rebate.; a refund of the total amount paid. A subsidy is given regardless of any money you have paid.
Even if you regarded the rebate as a subsidy it means that BHP is still giving the government 6.1 billion dollars. Now how can you say that the government is subsiding BHP if the net result is that BHP is giving the government 6.1 billion dollars?
You can not counter the lies of the right by lies of the left.
- Mr. Divine
09 February 2011 at 00:01@Joffeman: 'Critizising the facts about e.g. subsidies in an article, when you do not know what subsidies are...'
Really! so I don't know the meaning of the word 'subsidy'. Perhaps you can tell me what it means? You probably don't know yourself and you're just trying to give me a bit of a put down.
- Mr. Divine
09 February 2011 at 04:04@andyg: If you don't reveal anything of yourself then you're a nothing person this blog. People know who I am and in part what I've done .. I've been on the NS blog site for over 2 years. But because you don't reveal what you are, or what you've done, you are regarded as a 'nothing person'. In short, a person whose words mean nothing.
If you want to be taken seriously then you must not be afraid and tell people who you are. I don't need friends. I don't need supporters. Not like you. My life stands for itself... yours is unrevealed.
Now I sometimes respect the words of John Pilger. I know who he is. He's mainly come across me as criticising him. But I have highly praised John Pilger for the mateship he has provided for Julian Assange. I think I know who Gideon Polye is .. a scientist in an Australian university. So to me he is a person that I know. But you andy.. you are a nothing person in this the NS blogsphere, a newcomer, that I have no personal details about. It's the same with Hans Castrop .. who the f is he? Who the F are you Hans? In some respects their words are empty like yours andyg, because I don't know who they are. And that's important to me ... words/ideas don't stand on their own .. there must be a person behind them. You will understand this if you travelled as much as me. But you're a home bum, someone who only knows the world through books. A home bum. isn't that right, andyg, a home bum.
You see, to connect with me, that's ME, then you have to tell me who YOU ARE. You're a little pounce nonentity because you're afraid to tell me who you are.
Like I said to you, your words mean nothing you little nonentity.
Reveal something more than what you have given. But you're afraid.
- Down Under
09 February 2011 at 12:11Every time I read John Pilger I shake my head.
The General is right on the media - they will can easily break the recovery just by multiple negative reports e.g a little old lady down the street didn't get her power on until 1 hour after it was promised. ... Yet the media could easily forget that ten of thousands of (unpaid volunteers worked together. It has happened before and will happen again.
The Crumbs of Treasury???? What 5 billion for Brisbane, a couple of billion for North Queensland, some for the WA fires and Victorian floods. Oh I forgot the three other major floods in SE Queensland and another in NSW all late last year.
So make that hmm $15 billion in federal aid plus I suppose the insurance polices and public donations.
The public expect better research from someone purporting to be a journalist
Cheers
- andyg
09 February 2011 at 17:09"you're a nothing person.
you are regarded as a 'nothing person'
you are a nothing person in this the NS blogsphere.
who the f is he?
Who the F are you Hans?
their words are empty like yours andyg,
But you're a home bum,
someone who only knows the world through books.
A home bum. isn't that right, andyg, a home bum.
I stick to what I wrote earlier regarding your anger and what brings it about. I also reinforce the comment of you been a twisted cyber bully. I could think of other words but I refuse to stoop to your low life level. I'm sure the readers of these blogs will understand exactly what I'm saying. So long loner.
Just for the course however, last year I travelled to Morrocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Crete, Rhodes, Corfu, Libya, Algeria, Cyprus and Syria. I enjoyed the company of the locals that much that I returned for a second visit. My bosses were'nt to pleased though but you only live once. This year will be very much the same although the destination plans are different. Thanks for the debate but as you say I am a nobody.
He who lives by perfection is he who alone exists.
- andyg
09 February 2011 at 18:20For tis the nature of the beast to proclaim his cleverness and flaunt his new found wealth; For there is no forward thinking within his intellectual makeup, merely a childlike need to fullfill the gratifications for immediate pleasures. He struts his stuff creating resentment, hatred, boastfullness and a lack of all known rules in witnessing hidden sadistic pleasures.
That baying beast, is always revealed by the sound of his roar.
(William Shakespear).
- Mr. Divine
09 February 2011 at 22:17@andyg: so you went on a cruise of the Med! Or was it an all expenses paid coach trip? And the only locals you met were hotel door men and waiters. Wow you've really travelled.
And of course you're one of those English Lit graduates who has read so many cinderella stories that you see the world in black and white, good versus evil, beauty and the beast, socialism versus capitalism.
I can tell you haven't studied economics. If BHP are providing the Australian government with 6.1 billion dollars net each year then you can't say the government is subsidizing them. It's that simple.
Have you noticed that another person, 'Down under' has recognised that Pilger's article is misleading. How can Pilger say that the government is only providing 'crumbs' when they have pledged over 6 billion dollars!. Is 6 billion crumbs? NO.
You see the key problem is the way that certain members of the left are attempting to present a case. People recognise when they are being misled by 'loaded', misused and inaccurate words, and consequently they are turned off and react adversely to anything else the person says in the future or the cause they are trying to promote. And this is one of the reasons why the left is failing.
You can't counter the lies of the right by lies from the left.
- Mr. Divine
10 February 2011 at 11:51Subsidy study .
Greepeace 1: " Oh look we have a spare $50,000 .. what shall we spend it on?"
Greenspace2 " I have mate at the stratggy studies WORLD renown like, he'll knock up a report for 50 grand to say that the pollies are subsiding fossil fuels to the tune of 8/9 billion a year. He's pretty sharp with his words"
EMINENT PROF: Thanks for the beer
Greeenpeace2 : That OK, thanks for the bullshit report."
EPROF: No worries mate. Thanks for the 42 grand.
Sod off with your fake academic nonsense Gideon.
- andyg
10 February 2011 at 17:58LOL
- Mr. Divine
11 February 2011 at 08:01Haven't you heard andyg, that academia in the arts is just a pile of crock. Anyone with a half a brain know that it's full of book worms with 2:1s in how to write airy fairy 'essays' of nothing in particular while suppressing the desire to question what they have just wrote. Academics in the arts are the new class that we all ignore cos they speak rubbish... in convoluted semantic sentences.
let me assure you University is dead for the arts. here is where the action is.
- andyg
15 February 2011 at 18:15@Mr Divine
Still can't aim straight, and still missed the target.
- andyg
17 February 2011 at 20:32@Mr Divine
The company's annual average diesel rebate FROM tax payers is estimated to be between $130 - $138 million dollars.
Maybe a course in acurate literature would help.
I await your next shot sire.
- andyg
17 February 2011 at 20:43@ Mr Divine.
I just wondered if this might interest you.
Ekati Diamond Mine:
Canada’s first and largest diamond mine, Ekati is located 300 km northeast of Yellowknife and 200 km south of the
Artic circle. BHP Billiton is a large multinational corporation based in Australia and made profits of $7.5 billion
worldwide in 2005. The Ekati mine is a remote site and workers are flown into and out of the mine. BHP has hired
an outside security force called AFI – International, an organization that specializes in recruiting replacement
workers and conducting surveillance. Complaints have been filed with the RCMP alleging that these BHP security
representatives are intimidating and harassing striking union workers and their families, as well as, union
representatives. This is the same security company that Telus used during their strike with the Telecommunications
Workers Union. (May 2006)
Not so squeeky clean after all!
- andyg
17 February 2011 at 20:53@Mr Divine
Or what about a more recent report on the beloved?
Threatening lives, the environment, and peoples’ future – An Alternative Annual Report on BHP Billiton 2009-2010
"BHP Billiton may agree in theory on upholding human rights but in 2009-2010 there was no reporting on human rights risk assessments or ‘material risk’ identification, showing a lack of commitment in this area. While BHP Billiton has a policy on human rights, as explained within its Sustainability Framework , and is a signatory to a number of voluntary agreements on human rights, it is apparent from the following case studies that policy does not equate to practice.
Many of the countries that BHP Billiton operates in have poor records on corruption, poor human rights records and a high level of militarisation, and are willing to make serious compromises for desperately needed foreign investment. These are all factors that often create an environment that undermines the rights of communities when faced with a form of development they oppose".
Do you want to return to salt pans or something else?
I still await your next shot sire.
- Mr. Divine
18 February 2011 at 08:15this is my last salvo andyg.
If you are too lazy to work out what a rebate is then you deserve none of my knowledge.
got that you lazy git.
dickhead. get an economics education.
- Mr. Divine
18 February 2011 at 10:52Sorry andyg, Friday night piss up: Look a rebate is a refund on the tax you have already paid. The diesel rebate in Oz is for ALL primary producers. its a tax refund not just for BHP. it isn't a subsidy.
but you really need a economics education ... i can't keep giving you lessons. u will never be taken seriously i you don't.
- andyg
18 February 2011 at 17:55@ Mr Divine
I accept your apology........... again.
Hope your head and liver recover. Ican just imagine you hitting your head on the rebate of some door, poor thing.
Your last salvo never addresses the whole. I wasn't aware that you required a degree to work out human right abuses or to understand what profit means. Isn't profit wages that haven't been paid to the worker(s)?
- Mr. Divine
18 February 2011 at 21:58No profit isn't that ... you've been reading marxist rubbish. education.
- Mr. Divine
19 February 2011 at 07:08andyg: get yourself an economics A level at A or B level. Make sure you do mirco economics and then come back to me.
Maybe you think you have. Maybe you think like Pilger because you've been given a hon degree you think you understand what you've been given.
And if you did study then what would you know about the world if you spent all your life as a journalist or an academic? To have never worked in a factory or a building site? To never have known life outside a narrow smug existence?
Like I said do a fing A level in Economics and tell me about Marginal Cost and Marginal Revenue. And then we'll talk again. Until then we have nothing to say because you appear ignorant to me on economics. Perhaps you know something about the structure of a door but do you know what's on the other side?
If you don't reveal your education then bother replying.
- andyg
19 February 2011 at 10:38Well this is a turn up for the book. Mr Divine finally throws in the towel in round 12.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with Marxist philosophy and indeed I make no apology for that.
"Men make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please, they do not make it under circumstances that have been directly chosen by themselves; But under circustances that have been directly given and transmitted from the past. The weight heirto, of all those dead generations weighs down like a living nightmare on the brains of the living."
People work and receive money. Companies yeild things to sell and make money. Therefor the company has to find a way to get the worker to give up that money in whatever means are possible.
According to Mario Puzzo, "behind every fortune can be found the crime".
So long sucker.
(The problem for the beast is that he thinks himself a cut above the rest).
All construction involves destruction.
- Mr. Divine
19 February 2011 at 12:21'I don't think that there is anything wrong with Marxist philosophy '
How can you know if its wrong or right, you don't even understand basic economic terms like rebate or subsidy or profit? You're ignorant. You don't really think. I bet you don't even know Marxist philosophy.
- andyg
19 February 2011 at 12:49Oh dear, your fishing again now that your salt pan has run dry. All I see now in your words are the unaccounted costs or extra units from your exploited wealth. Don't people like yourself refer to this as a 'dovetail'. In the UK it's refered to as the 'Philips' bend. Our last chancellor, very much like yourself had a strange concept of Keynesian economics when it came to the global financial crash. He nationalised the debt of the financial institutions and privatised the profits. Something I suppose that you might do if you had the position, never mind. If these Adam Smith economic and fiscal institutions are so elitist, why o why have the economies of scale(s) of such institutions come to such a climax? I wonder if it's the relationship between supply and demand, or maybe des capital?
You promised above that there was more to come. I do wish you would extend your knowledge of which to date I have seen little.
I awaite your next shot sire now that you are literary injured.
Toodle pip Skippy.
- Mr. Divine
19 February 2011 at 21:48It does sound like like might know something about economics but still I doubt it.
- Mr. Divine
19 February 2011 at 22:15You see the phillips bend is in fact the Phillips Curve.
And it represents a relationship between unemployment and inflation. It has nothing to do with unaccounted costs.
You just keep showing your ignorance to me. Get yourself an economics A level.
- andyg
20 February 2011 at 09:07Neither can you read or make obvious connections. I thought rather foolishly that you had an eye for interconnected grey areas that seperate black and white.
I await your next shot sire.
- Mr. Divine
20 February 2011 at 21:39Profit is total revenue minus total cost. Part of that profit is a return for money invested into the venture at the start and during the operation of the business. It is a necessary return because without it there would be no investment in the first place... and hence no business. Nobody would bother risking their money if there was no possibility of a return.
So when Marx says that profit was merely the value of labour he was wrong. Profit represents a return for risk. And something that risk is rewarded and sometimes not. Profit is also necessary to reinvest in capital and more training and research. It is also there to cover the possibility of future losses.
Marx was also wrong when he said that capitalism would result in the cost of labour being kept to a bare minimum to maximise profit. And this would result in the workers revolting against their bosses. This has not happened because workers have been paid more and more, and indeed so much that through their pensions they now own part of the businesses. This means that Marx again was incorrect.
Why do you think I'm wrong? Time for you to debate.
- andyg
21 February 2011 at 17:23@ Mr Divine.
How on earth can you say that workers have been paid more and more when the current minimum wage is £5.93 per hour for workers aged 21 and over. There are companies in the UK that pay this rate to workers even though the make millions in profit. Think about it, it's taken since the abolition of slavery in 1833 for this megre sum to get to where it is. The worker in most cases has to rely on tax credits to bring them up to a living income. I'm sorry but if you call this advancement then I'm going to hve to disagree with you. It's simply the state bailing out the bad employer. I believe that the same problem occured a few years back in Australia.
As for workers revolting against there bosses, legislation in the UK has become so antiquated that people fear losing their employment. For example, a couple of years ago the Post office workers went on strike due to the plans that the government had in place i.e. more work less pay. At the time of the strike the PO employed a dozen or so agency workers to fill any void within the workforce. When the strike took place the PO employed hundreds of agency workers to fill the gap of the strikers.
At a factory know as system dynamics, the workers went on strike due to the appauling way in which they were treated by their employer. The employer simply called the company something else and replaced the striking workers with other workers. Marx never envisaged this either.
These matters and others went before the house of lords and were represented by John Hendry QC. When the queens speech arrived later that year there was no mention of these or any other issues relating to employment reform. This and I'll repeat it if you want was the workings of a so called labour government who simply drove the issue out prior to the queens speech.
I'm sure that many people who have had dealings with a pension in the UK may be able to tell you more than I what terrible deeds have been done to them. There are simply too many to mention. And it's not just in the UK, it's everywhere you look or go you hear the same stories. Even in New Zealand I believe they brought in the 90 day rule or whatever it was called, where workers could be sacked for no apparent reason and did not have the opportunity to have their case heard at a tribunal. No Marx never mentioned any of this either.
In the UK you can win a tribunal hearing and be awarded compensation for your losses but you are still sacked. More and more cases are now coming where workers are not given the awards they have won. They then have to persue the matter through the Civil courts and the same happens. The CAB are reporting that Judges are telling these people to quit while they still have a few quid in their pockets. Marx never mentioned this either.
Is it little wonder then that the world let alone the UK are beggining to rise up and say enough is enough.
Rights all rights should be sacred and not open to interpretation. hen principles are comprimised for whatever reason, especially money, then then cease to be principles at all.
Hope this helps.
I await your next shot sire.
- andyg
21 February 2011 at 17:55@ Mr Divine.
On the subject of profit etc this I believe maybe right up your street.
Scroll down to 28 Feb 2006: column 26wh
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/v...
An amendment to the previous page, it was John McDonnell QC and not John Hendry QC. oops
- andyg
21 February 2011 at 19:45"First, the Government can veto pay and conditions agreements between the rail unions and private train operating companies. Secondly, the Government can waive penalty payments incurred by private train operating companies involved in industrial disputes. Thirdly, the Government can provide compensation—this is staggering, and I do not know of any other example in any other industry, public or privatised—to private train operating companies that have lost revenue through involvement in industrial disputes. In other words, on top of the billions of pounds of subsidy and profit already paid to private train operators, it is now Government policy to bankroll private train operating companies in their disputes with the rail unions. That is subsidising a subsidy. It is subsidising industrial relations failure on behalf of employers".
Now do you see my point. I was not simply trying to cause an arguement but people have been dying on the railways whilst all this goes on.
- andyg
21 February 2011 at 20:17Marx did state that "employed workers have no democratic control over what they produce; production priorities are determined by the profit motives of the employers rather than the democratically according to the human needs in society; and there are built - in tendancies towards economic and political crisis. Genuine democracy simply is not possible in a society divided into exploiting and exploited classes. The state acts on behalf of the dominant or 'ruling' classes and is an essential institution for maintaining the class system and the exploitation of workers".
He hit the nail on the head in relation to the modern day rail workers.
- Mr. Divine
21 February 2011 at 20:58Workers have been paid more than what they used to get. Their material standard of living has increased. To deny this is to deny the truth. So Marx was wrong when he said the workers would be exploited to the maximum. Workers in the West have big screen TVs and drive around in cars and go on cruises on the Med like did twice last year. Marx was wrong.
You can give me many examples of worker employer relations and minimum pay but you can not deny that workers have obtained more material reward for their labour. And that's why Marxism as a philosophy is flawed. That's why your thinking is flawed because you accept what Marx said is true.
Like I said, get an education. And by the way I'm not an economics graduate.
Workers have obtained more material reward for their labour over time. So Marx was wrong.
- Mr. Divine
21 February 2011 at 21:16andyg: Many people are like you. They only know one political philosophy and for people like you it's Marxism. They don't understand that you can think about the world in a variety of different ways. My BA was in Political Philosophy .. Marxism was just one of many I studied.
I reject lots of what Marx wrote. But the most obvious flaw is the idea that workers will be exploited to the max. Clearly with workers obtaining great material wealth since the 1840s he was wrong in this assumption. He was therefore wrong with his assumption that workers will rise up against a 'system' that will squeeze every last drop.
You see andyg I don't see it in terms of 'capitalism' and 'socialism'.
And please don't bother quoting the pedophile (Marx was a pedo) anymore .. he spent his life in a library and brothels with underage girls. This man has nothing more to say to me... I've already read him and understood where he was wrong.
You on the other hand have a lifetime of delusion and frustration to look forward to.
- Mr. Divine
21 February 2011 at 23:06So the debate now narrows to this one question,
"Has the material reward for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years?"
If the answer is yea then Marx is wrong. Do you say 'No" andyg?
- andyg
22 February 2011 at 17:15I'm so sorry I went to all that trouble to find a debate that I thought we could discuss only to find that you are really a lazy basket who makes up his own conversations.
Have a look at the salt ridden, waterlogged, materialistic environment damage and then try and tell me that people have been rewarded.On BBC radio 4 today their was a discussion about the debt crisis around the world.
PS I only met waiters and whatever else it was. I won it in the newspaper that you read called........the sun.
- andyg
22 February 2011 at 17:33Marx's own analysis of capitalism began from quite a different point than that adoted by Liberal thinkers. Marx rejected as an insipid illusion their belief that social analyss should begin with the examination of the isolated individual. He argued that individuals did not exist in that isolated form. Individuals exist only in relationships with each other - in social relationships.
I'm sorry that once again you have to drag the discussion down to such a low level as yourself. I'm also sorry that you wasted your time at Uni and got bugger all to show for it at the end.
You drink and get drunk and abuse because you are the frustrated, that's why you find it difficult to discuss issues with a woman. Let me give you some advice little man, it's not the size of the wand, it's the majic of its perfomance.
I await your next shot little sire.
- andyg
22 February 2011 at 18:54@ Mr Defunct
Have a look at this though I doubt you will.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/interactive/2010/apr/28/e...
Cars TV's, and debt, don't forget the debt Mr Silicone.
o this would mean that the maximum of which Marx was refering to was surplus to the actual income.
I await your next salvo thick cut ha ha ha
- andyg
22 February 2011 at 19:02@ Mr Doorbell
Here ya kettle cop for this one aswell. These workers wont even receive an income.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/12/unemployment-...
Toodle pip saline dripper
- andyg
22 February 2011 at 19:09Corruption and the cult of the market have made a natural disaster into an outrage.
- Mr. Divine
22 February 2011 at 21:11So the debate now narrows to this one question but you still fail to answer it. Lets try again because it demonstrates why Marx is wrong.
"Has the material reward for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years?"
If the answer is yea then Marx is wrong. Do you say 'No" andyg?
And please stick to where we are in the debate. Do not try to evade the question and off topic You made out that there was nothing wrong with Marxist philosophy and I came up with this question. Answer the question. If you don't you lose the debate.
- Mr. Divine
22 February 2011 at 21:19Stick to the question. don't evade the question.
"Has the material reward for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years?"
And I'm not talking about one individual I'm talking about labour as whole.
And please stop evading the question. Do you know what he question of the debate so far is? This is where you need to to ficus your attention on:
"Has the material reward for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years?"
Now are you sure you can keep that question in focus and not wander off into some other evasive direction? Lets see how focused you can be.
Answer the question.
- Mr Woogy
23 February 2011 at 04:46Natural disasters happen, the same as shit, even to good fearing socialists! The problem is clever white men starting with the Victorians have minimised their impact even in tropical lands! Overpopulation will mean more newsworthy events that can be blamed on climate change.
- Mr. Divine
23 February 2011 at 07:03Mr. Woogy; why are being racist to white men? it's all men.
Another racist bites the dust.
- andyg
23 February 2011 at 17:10Wait there Mr Woogy, I'll come to your question soon but it hurts to write that I agree (ahhhhhhhh) with Mr Divine. You got it right with your Shi*.
@ Mr Dvine.
I've been wondering all day at work at what your response would be Mr half a century.
"Has the material reward for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years?"
Answer: For mankind as a whole, No.
I await your next shot sire.
- andyg
23 February 2011 at 17:16Mr Woogy sire, according to Sen, since the 1980's world food production has doubled in relation to world population growth.
Climate change use to be called global warming but some American decided that the term "global warming" was too alarmist so it was changed.
- andyg
23 February 2011 at 17:46So the debate now narrows to this one question but you still fail to answer it. Lets try again because it demonstrates why Marx is right.
"Has the debt for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years from a global perspective?"
If the answer is yes then Marx is right. Do you say 'No" Mr Divine?
And please stick to where we are in the debate. Do not try to evade the question and go off the topic You made out that there was nothing right with Marxist philosophy and I came up with this question. Answer the question. If you don't you lose the debate.
I dare say that you will evade the question like so many others I have asked because your brain is mush. Your thoughts are woolley and your ranting is nothing more than childish tantrums.
So let's try asking the question once more Mr Divine.
"Has the debt for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years from a global perspective?" Yes or no?
- Mr. Divine
23 February 2011 at 20:34Like I said stick to the question. Do not evade the question.
I've won the debate.
- Mr. Divine
23 February 2011 at 20:36And please, show me how petty you are and repeat my comment above. And this one and the one after etc etc.
- Mr. Divine
24 February 2011 at 02:42"Has the debt for labour increased in absolute terms in the last 150 years from a global perspective?" Yes or no?
Of course you need to define what you mean by debt for labour. Are you trying to say that labour has not been paid its 'natural/true' value in the last 150 years? And therefore labour is owed a debt? What figures are you looking at to determine whether this is the case. How does one determine 'natural' /true value?
- andyg
24 February 2011 at 17:08The same as the value of materialism. You see you not only ask the question but you also answer it.
Toole pip Anne
- Mr. Divine
24 February 2011 at 20:50Labour is owed a debt? I don't think so. For labour also owes capital a debt. They cancel each other out. Without capital there would no labour. And what exactly is capital? Capital is saved labour from millions of years.
And labour by itself is not the creating all of the wealth for the land can produce by itself through self seeding and raw materials on the surface. So again Marxism is flawed.
There are many flaws in marxist analysis of history but the most telling is the fact that the world has not moved in the way Marx has predicted it would.
The introduction of social security means that some people are living like owners of capital, off the labour of others. They don't fit into his 'pattern' of life. Are they the beggars that he talks about?
The most significant flaw is Marx's presumption that labour would rise up against the owners of capital. But in fact labour has become significant owners of capital and use it to gain further wealth (e.g. pension funds). So much so there is no need or hope of revolution in the developed world because people who work are materially well off.
You're an idiot if you're a Marxist or think that there is nothing wrong with the philosophy. Its time you expanded your education.
- andyg
27 February 2011 at 17:51No, no, sire, the accumulation of capital is the surplus that has not been paid for labour. In other words it is accumulated wealth that has been stolen from the worker, whether that is direct labour or what the worker has saved from his labour. (Interest on savings etc)
Without capital there would no be labou: Lobour is what men are capable of producing from the earth. Western philosophy states that men mould the land whereas north American indian philosophy was that the land moulded the man. You decide which is right. The concept of money reward for labour is a relatively new concept in relation to the existance of mankind. So from a modern day perspective you would be correct with regards to the developed world. But. over the time period you give and in relation to mankind as a whole over that time period you would be wrong.
And labour by itself is not the creating all of the wealth for the land can produce by itself through self seeding and raw materials on the surface: This statement is true enough and reflecs my arguement regarding the salt pans and invasive species earlier in the debate. But, the land can not produce at the rate of extraction therefore the concept of desertification starts to become the norm. Oil for example is one such commodity that will cease because of the rate of extraction in relation to the time for it to become what it is. ie oil. The same could be said of some species of trees such as the large Redwoods, or, peatbogs that are vital for so many different species of birds, bees and insects.
The introduction of social security means that some people are living like owners of capital, off the labour of others.
I wouldn't quite put it like this but I take the point. Universal social security payments were part of the Universal declaration of human rights. Depending on where you are in the world depends on what you get. Just because there is a declaration in place and agreed to it doesn't automatically follow that it is implemented. If it was then we wouldn't constantly see those people in South Africa starving to death. So from a Universal point of view Marx writing are still relevant and therfore from the pictures that come on to the television screens here, yes these would be the beggers, what other choice have they got? I could also refer to European states that have recently seen war and the attrocities that have occured to those who have nothing to do with war. So even closer to home Marxist writings are relevant.
Your last paragraph requires further clarification. I think that you could have given a better example than pension funds give what has occured to many of them over the years.
I await your next shot sire.
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- Mr. Divine
02 March 2011 at 08:44Andyg: How do you think capital has come about? How has it originated?
I've answered so many of your questions without you answering one of mine. Try this one.
- andyg
06 March 2011 at 16:06uhhhh
From the hard graft of the workers.
- andyg
07 March 2011 at 19:09@ Mr divine.
What's up has the answer stumped you?.......again.
Now listen hear you naughty boy. Don't go wandering off into the woods, I'm hear asking you a question. I'm sick to the back teeth of educating you, yet you still don't seem to be able to take in what I'm teaching you. So listen carefully.
What.......exactly.......do you.........mean.........by.........capital? There are different kinds of capital you airbrain. Now answer the question and let your audiance decide as to whether you are right or wrong. Come on now, you've been shy with your answers up to this point.
I await your next shot thick cut.
- Mr. Divine
07 March 2011 at 20:55Andyg: How do you think capital has come about? How has it originated?
This is the question I am asking you.
- Mr. Divine
10 March 2011 at 01:15How do you think capital has come about? How has it originated?
Answer: Through the labour of man.
So why the moral distinction between one product of labour and another? Capital is a vital component of economic growth. Without it we'll have an average lifespan of 30 years.
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